Introduction
It's National Poetry Month, and I'm speaking with
Stephen Dobyns, who is about to conclude his semester
as the H. Bruce McEver Visiting Chair in Writing at
Georgia Tech.
Whether he's writing prose or poetry, Dobyns is a
story-teller par excellence, and whether he's writing
about courage or cowardice, the raucous or the
spiritual, the meek or the menacing, whether his
character is Orpheus or a Sad Sack getting a thrill
in a topless bar, Dobyns' poems are funny, full of
testosterone, and profoundly human. At first glance,
they appear casual in that they start simply enough,
but they pick up speed and hurtle the reader forward
just the way life does. He is witty, imaginative,
sometimes shocking, and always wildly original.
Dobyns is so forthcoming and generous with his
responses during the interview, what follows is a
course in poetry, and for that reason, TCR presents
it in two parts: Part I (below) discusses poetry in
general, but always as it stacks up against Dobyns'
own philosophy about what poetry is and is supposed
to do, and
Part II
(to be presented in
Issue 26) is an exploration into his
particular body of workthe progression of
Stephen Dobyns and the Stephen Dobyns poem book by
book.
—Ginger Murchison
Audio clips from the interview:
Rhythm borrowed from music
On Philip Larkin
Following your idea
Defining one's self
Invention of metaphor (Merwin's Asian figures)
Sound as metaphor (Yeats' "Leda and the Swan")
Stephen Dobyns
On Poetry — The Interview
TCR: The Georgia Tech Community and Atlanta,
both of whom have benefited from your work here, will
miss you, so I'm going to try to ask the
questions they'd ask, and they'd want to know more
about you, so describe Stephen Dobyns as a
twelve-year-old. What about him would have predicted
he'd be a writer?
Stephen Dobyns: I'm not sure
anything would have predicted that. I read a lot,
though at that time I probably read science fiction
and mysteries. I was a good writer then, although I
didn't have any sense of it. There were writing
exercises I had to do in grade school, and the
teacher would read them out loudsomething I
took as a punishment rather than as
flatteringbut she or he would be struck by
them, and then, I think, in the 7th gradethe
6th grade was in East Lansing, Michigan, and the 7th
grade was in Arlington, VirginiaI started
reading stuff that was, I suppose, more adult. I
remember looking through the school library for
another science fiction book, and I found
Steinbeck's
The Moon is Down, which
struck me as a science fiction title, and it led me
to reading Steinbeck, and from there, Hemingway.
TCR: Do you remember what you were reading
the first time you thought I can do that?
Stephen Dobyns: I don't think I
ever thought that. What I felt was I wanted
to do that. When I was 15 or 16, the poetry I knew
was mostly what was taught in high school and junior
high school. It tended to be nineteenth-century
poetry and, whatever my feelings were, I remember
liking Browning's "To His Last Duchess,"
but I had no sense of its being something that I
could do or wanted to do. The language was too
different from my own.
About that time, though, they started
reading poetry to jazz, and I was very struck by
that. There was one album of William Carlos Williams
and Walt Whitman; there were other albums of
Ferlinghetti and Rexroth reading, and then an album
of Langston Hughes reading, and I started reading
poetry and thinking I wanted to write it.
TCR: So music was the hook. I know you're
very deliberate about the rhythm of the line. I've
seen you tap out the lines with your foot or finger
while you read.
Stephen Dobyns: That's true. My
father had been a musician and had gone to Julliard
to study piano, but he left there to go to graduate
school at Columbia in music. He didn't like teaching
high school music and went into other work, but there
was music in the house a lot; he was musical, my
mother was musical, my brother plays various
instruments, my son plays various instruments. Many
times I've gotten rhythms from music, not necessarily
transposing the rhythm of a song into the poem, but I
keep taking it into consideration. I remember a poem
that I wrote in graduate school in Iowaprobably
about 1965 or so. The first line was:
You pick up your purse, I speak, you
smile,
and that ba bop ba ba bop ba bop ba bop
struck me as a straightforward rock and roll rhythm.
TCR: I guess that's what you meant when you
said you listen to music to steal.
Stephen Dobyns: Exactly. Mostly
it's not a clear-cut transition from one to the
other, but I listen and think how I could do
something like that.
TCR: Taking into account the magnitude of
your work and the excellence of it, regardless of
what genre you're in, suggests that you are driven to
write. Explain what drives you.
Stephen Dobyns: I suppose
there's a need to translate my experience of the
world into language. Things are most palpable to me
in language. Obviously, we live within time, and time
is constantly going by, and a poem or anything you
write, really, attempts to freeze a moment of time.
I've always felt a need to do that as
well... something I saw, something I experienced. The
poem is not necessarily directly about that
experience, but it is a metaphor for it, and, too,
there's the pleasure of putting the words together,
of trying to articulate things in a particular
manner, whether it be in the complexity of image or
the complexity of sound. That's always a task: to see
if you can do that.
TCR: After all these poems and all these
books, it's still a task?
Stephen Dobyns: Sure. I haven't
learned everything. I haven't learned half of
everything.
TCR: Maybe that's why I don't see you
involved in a lot of self-promotion. It seems as if
you write, going where the writing takes you, without
getting caught up in self-importance. I respect that.
Stephen Dobyns: I don't believe
in self-promotion much. I think you choose either the
work or the life. There certainly are poets who
choose the life, who are into self-promotion, and
that's what they are.
You
can't allow yourself to be hesitant in a poem. You have to think
what the poem needs, and you have to be frank with it.
TCR: Who or what is Stephen Dobyns? Can you
define him?
Stephen Dobyns: I think something can only be
defined when it's settled. I see the work as
changing, see the books as different from one
another, so it would be hard for me to make a
definition. Also, I'm not sure I want that
consciousness of myself. One of the things I try to
avoid is self-parody, and if I were to sit down and
try to define myself, it would seem an immediate
limitation. Language is always a diminishment of what
it's attempting to describe, and thinking of the
critical terms we know, all those which are
critic-based are, for the most part, a diminishment
of an idea.
Charlie Simic is a poet I admire and whose work is
very consistent. In the almost forty years of poetry
that we have from him, while there are certainly
changes within Simic, they are very slight changes,
and you can always recognize a Simic poem, so I
suppose it might be easier for someone like Simic to
define what he is doing. I am working within the
genre of poetry, and that permits me a lot of room,
whether it be the prose poem or a very traditional
poem or different kinds of free verse poems.
TCR: That's
pretty evident in the range of the work you've
published. I will get more into the work, but for now
I'm going to make a personal observation, and I look
forward to your correcting me if I'm wrong, but
socially you are very quiet and seemingly much more
inclined to listen than to jump into the argument,
yet your poems are full of opinion, they are
visceral, raucous, and speak in a voice that is
anything but reticent, and one that seems to come
quite naturally, so what happens when you pick up the
pen? Whose voice are we hearing in the poems?
Stephen Dobyns: It's my voice. I can be
argumentative when I need to be, but I once heard a
guy at a meeting say that when he felt inclined to
talk, he asked himself: Why am I saying this? Do
I need to say it? Do I need to say it now? That
made me realize that a lot of human speech is
jockeying for position, and so before I speak, I want
to know if I'm trying to reflect some credit on
myself. That sometimes makes me more reticent than I
might otherwise be. I don't want to use my speech to
set me off or see that other people are impressed by
me. That's just smoke and mirrors.
TCR: That
shows a huge respect for the language and for other
people, and it speaks again to your unwillingness to
self-promotion. I'm awed at that kind of generosity.
I'm also in awe that you can write in so many
genres at once and move, apparently easily, back and
forth between them. Even Faulkner, you know,
described himself as a failed poet. He said:
Maybe every novelist
wants to write poetry first, finds he can't and then
tries the short story, which is the most demanding
form after poetry. And failing at that, only then
does he take up novel writing.
If I remember right, that's not the way you did it. I
think you wrote poetry first, then novels, then short
stories, but comment, if you will, on how you keep
all of that on your desk at the same time and move so
easily between them.
Stephen Dobyns: They're all different ways of
using my mind. The first things I wroteI was in
high schoolwere little short story things,
little descriptive paragraph things. I also did some
journalism in high school, and then in college I
wrote some poems and some fiction and took a
playwriting class and tried to write some plays.
Obviously, I wrote papers in college and afterward
began working as a general assignment reporter for
the Detroit News, and since about 1995, I've
been writing feature stories for the San Diego
Reader.
They're all just different ways of trying to describe
experience. I guess I would agree with Faulkner. A
lot of novelists whom we think of as major novelists
also wrote poems: Joyce and Hemingway have poems as
wellpretty bad poems.
I hadn't taken short stories seriously for a long
time because I didn't think I could do them, but I
read stories by Chekhov, the writer I probably admire
more than any other, and I read other stories,
certainly, but once I started writing short
storiesthe ones that finally came out in the
book
Eating NakedI saw that
they came out of me much the same way poems do. I
mean, I write poems to find out why I write them,
whereas, with the novel, I have certain ideas and put
those down in notes and continue to build those notes
until I have a sense of the whole novel, and then I
outline those notes and have character sketches and
all kinds of stuff. There's still a lot of discovery
in the novel, but I have a sense before I begin of
the curve of that novelthe beginning, middle,
and end.
Language is
always a diminishment of what it's attempting to describe, and
thinking of the critical terms we know, all those which are
critic-based are, for the most part,
a diminishment of an idea.
TCR:
Speaking of discovery, you said once that you've
written the same poem over and over, not so that the
reader would ever recognize it, but that you keep
looking at the same thing over and over. Would you
speak to that? What are you after?
Stephen Dobyns: One of the writers I admire
most is the poet Philip Larkin, and I think often of
his work. He is absolutely tenacious in following a
subject; he's like someone who turns over rocks to
study the bugs that exist underneath, and the human
experience is like that, which is obviously a
pessimistic view, but it's one, nevertheless, that
reflects in Larkin. It goes back to the question of
what it is to be a human being, to look closely
enough to come to some kind of answer. Our mood is
changing all the time, and our psychology is slightly
changing or modifying, so I might look at something
and come up with one thing and look at the same thing
a week later and come up with something else. The
answers are like things that exist around it. You
define the space of something by occupying the space
around it like a mold. You keep coming at it from
different directions.
I'm trying to deal with the world, to understand it
in some way, to pass to some other kind of level
below its surface. The questionit's been
said—that exists in every work of art, poetry or
fiction and, I suppose, maybe even in music and
painting, is the question How does one live?
A writer addresses that question again and again,
sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly.
TCR: So, like
Larkin, even after you've written the poem one
way, you keep walking around the same subject,
exploring what it means from some other place,
another place in time and so another place in your
mind.
Stephen Dobyns: Exactly. This is something I
read in Yeats's autobiography when I was 22. Yeats
wrote two autobiographies, really. There was one that
was not published for many, many years called
The
First Draft, but in the other one, the one
actually called
Autobiography, he
says that we tend to write about the same things all
our lives, that the subject matter we have as young
adults is the subject matter we have as old adults,
and I thoughtat 22that that was an
absolutely horrible idea, yet as time goes by, I feel
it certainly is true. We have concerns as human
beings, primary concerns that exist all our lives.
Since we change during our lives and our insight also
changes, we approach those concerns differently over
a period of, say, forty years, but they're the same
concerns.
TCR: I guess
it's that looking back and looking back again that
elicits the truth of things, and you do get
to the truth, but not just the truth of the idea. You
get to the truth of the reader, and that
lends an incredibly human element to your work. I'd
suspect that even people who don't particularly like
your work respect your willingness to face up to the
hard fact of your (and our) humanness, but I can't
help wondering if that kind of honesty isn't possible
only in a perceived world. Do you think we can stand
a view of ourselves that's that honest?
Stephen Dobyns: I think we can. It's hard
because we are obviously always in motion, and we
don't necessarily stop and focus on what we are
doing. Psychoanalysis, or seeing a therapist can lead
us to a deeper sense of ourselves, but one doesn't
need that. One can find that through an experience or
one can find it through reading. Look at a novel like
Tolstoy's
Anna Karenina. The depths
of character that come out of that book are very
enlightening, and they're enlightening because we
realize that people around us also have that
complexity of character as do we ourselves, that we
have a conscious mind that is looking around us and
taking in the stuff around us, and then we have an
unconscious mind that's doing the same thing but
which is much harder to have any sense of. I mean we
see it in the effects of its actions rather than in
its causes. There are plenty of people who don't like
my work. I was dismissed just the other day as
"one of those accessible poets."
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